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C, some creatures ("vampires" and such)
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kyonides
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I truly believe that claiming that a character is immortal just denotes that the author couldn't further develop his or her character's attitude, standpoint, etc.

Would it be possible to create a half-immortal being?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a demimortal. Or rather a group of them that are one person. Also, there's different styles of "immortal". We've gone over this a billion times.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not looking for definitions of immortality, I was expecting to read something about any other "immortal" creatures, their abilities, weaknesses, etc. but I think some "demimmortal" ones would be even better.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinetiq wrote:

Some more words about the intricacies of ether particles and biology etc?


Ether is everywhere, Material particles are just areas of ether that are locally uneven- there's more of one "type" of ether than another (although there aren't really "types" in the strictest sense). They propagate through space like waves in water, but are incredibly small- subatomic particles, photons, etc.

"Ether particles" are different than material particles, because their net configurations are balanced- they may be uneven in density, but as a whole, they are complete ether.

In short, material is more about ratio of one 'sort' of ether to another, whereas ether particles are more about local density, so they can exist in the same place at the same time and not really bother each other.

Most ether particles are dependent or interactive with material, though, because they were created to be as such.

Material can't really do much of anything to ether particles directly, but it is essential because ether would not congeal or organize often without it.





The ether and the ether particles therein, define the reality of material, and yet are reliant on it due to their few inalienable properties:

    -Ether is a force of randomness. Ether randomly forms and de-forms complicated constructs (very tiny pieces of "coherent" ether)
    -Complicated constructs can break apart or fuse to become larger and more complicated.
    -The more complicated a construct of ether is, the more likely it will decay into free pieces of coherent ether (or into incoherent ether).
    -Ether is "curious" (a rough way to describe it, because it really acts more like diffusion)
    -The more interesting or unique a construct it, the more likely other complicated constructs of ether will fuse into it- those little pieces of coherent ether will be drawn to it (like air into a vacuum). The less interesting or more redundant a construct is, the more likely coherent ether will diffuse from it (like pressure- boring is like high pressure, interesting is like low pressure).





Without matter to provide interesting, complicated, material constructs (which are more stable, whereas ether constructs are not), there would be nothing for enough coherent ether to form around to create "consciousness" (done most optimally in complicated living things).







Extremely dense and complex chunks of coherent ether are called souls- there's no real distinction between them and smaller chunks, it's just that at a certain point, they become significant and noticeable.

Only young adult 'humans' or 'people' are really capable of forming substantial ones- children don't have much, as they aren't interesting enough to collect coherent ether in favor to young adults (whose lives are extremely dramatic).

After a certain point, between 50 and 100 years of age, a person has done just about everything he or she is going to, and the soul stops growing because the person is not longer engaging in new and interesting experiences- is not longer attracting more complicated, coherent ether. At this point, decay usually sets in.






People can live without 'soul's, but they become very bland, predictable, and un-motivated. The most interesting qualities of a person are taken on by the ether, and as such those parts of the brain tend to atrophy.

If kept away from coherent ether, a person can regain motivation completely naturally, although will tend to remain fairly bland and predictable (that is, the person can come out of the catatonic state of having no motivation to move).

A person whose soul is removed will find it growing back, though (very low pressure zone) to close to the point it was at (although will never quite be the same unless the person starts being more interesting, which is hard to do when you're bland)- the regrowth can be as short as a couple years (if away from society (adolescent competition slows it down)) or as long as a couple hundred (if the body lives that long).









A soul without a body is a different matter. They don't have the stability of a body to lean on.



-The first choice would be to create a new body, or kick another soul out of one and take it- this is not easy to do, however.




-Some souls form ectoplasmic bodies- unstable matter that is constantly breaking down into light (easier to make)- although they'll usually use their coherent ether to do so. On top of that, they're ever decaying, so they have to keep things interesting.

Elf and faery kind are examples of this- they don't do mischief because they're malevolent, but because if they don't- if they become bored for even a moment or to- they'll mostly dissolve away.

This option comes with a chronic fear of reapers, though- as far as reapers are concerned, these are free souls, ripe for the taking. As such, they avoid civilization where reapers might lurk in large numbers, and hide from human- they usually only appear to children, who are not followed by reapers due to having immature souls.

Some lure children with borderline souls (or even adults) away and over a bluff, killing them, then eating their souls (little effort, large payoff- big risk, too- any soul worth eating might have a reaper after it too). This is usually only done when the elf is on its last breath- out of other mischief- at this point it has usually deteriorated to a small glowing point of ectoplasm or light (the only thing it can maintain).

Elfin creatures are not well liked, usually.




-The least desirable option is deliberate de-coherency. A large soul can convert itself into many smaller ether particles that "stamp" itself onto something and maintain stability. This, however, is essentially the same as dissolution (although many times souls will do it)- the only difference is that it maintains some outward semblance of identity and makes the resultant pieces worthless- it pretty much obliterates any continuity of consciousness and locks the thing into a single state.

Souls that do this are more often known as ghosts, or haunts. If it died in anger, it'll always be angry. That's why you'll typically see ghosts playing out the last moments of their lives- they don't know anything else, and they are barely responsive to presence. These last almost indefinitely- they've simplified themselves to avoid decay (and made themselves useless to reapers)










kyonides wrote:

There's no creature with a physical form that can live forever and never get tired at all.


I explained that their strength does not derive from a physical source, and that they are not alive.

kyonides wrote:

Their energy costs would be higher than in humans that age, especially due to cell regeneration.


Their cells do not regenerate at all- they are dead. They're more dead than dead, even- once a vampire becomes old enough, it can't even rot because not even putrid bacterium can live in it. Lice can't even live on their skin once they become old enough (although when young, they usually soak themselves through in embalming fluid to avoid rotting in the early stages).

If it helps you understand them, they are like intelligent poltergeists that use a body. They are stuck in the body, though, by the umbra (which both protects [it masks ageons and makes it look to reapers like the vampire is uninteresting] and traps them, and allows them to move the body).



kyonides wrote:
Even the use and abuse of your magical powers can overload your system, hurt you and even make more problems.


Magic has no perceivable negative side effects if done correctly. Only shoddy execution produces side effects. The vampire's motive force is created by the umbra they have, which is a pure ether mechanic, so there's no "human error".

Quote:
Why wouldn't Blake's humans (or any other vampiric victims) also count on magic while trying to kill or trap some vampire?


Knowledge is power, and humans are desperately lacking in it. The vampires are moved by the umbra they hide in- they do not know how to create these ether particles (there's actually only one pig particle of umbra in each vampire).

The vampires have two things only: Stock, and Umbra. The stock they can produce more of (it is self-propagating)- the umbra they know not how to increase (it is very similar to stock but is based off a different ether configuration).

If you understood the ether well enough, and had power yourself, you could perhaps devise a way to dismiss the umbra, which would make the vampire a free wandering soul that would probably be taken by a reaper.

Ether that, or it would become an elf or a ghost, or find a new body to possess.

If it found a new body, that would probably mean it was very powerful, which would probably mean it was very old (vampire souls collect coherent ether well over time because they are unusual). If it was very old, that probably means it's super-saturated with ageons, which probably would mean that the person it possessed would die in a few hours.

Most likely it would be taken by reapers, since most vampires will wreak of ageons and the reapers will smell it as soon as the umbra is dropped.

Chances are, a vampire will either be taken by reapers or become a ghost if it loses its umbra.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this description makes me think it's easier to lose their body than to find a brand new one. So how do the balder souls get a body before a reaper shows up? Do they separate someone else from its body or what?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
So how do the balder souls get a body before a reaper shows up?


There's usually already a reaper there, waiting. Especially if anybody is in the process of dying or being violent.

Reapers sit by the beds of the elderly for weeks before they die sometimes, waiting.

Vampires can see reapers sometimes, though- humans generally can not. The reapers are not very smart- you could stab somebody and chase them bleeding out into the woods, and the reaper would follow the dying person. Kind of like "go fetch". If you've got a few reapers on you, though, you had better prepare for some sacrifices to divert their attentions. The more death, the more reapers will show up.

There are ways to keep them away, though. For example, most reapers will not cross water- most cannot swim. Some can, however, some can also walk on the water or fly over it (there are many different sorts of reapers). Most reapers are at least the size of a cat, so if you pack several people into a very small room, you could squeeze the reapers out of it (we're talking ten people in a phone booth full). Some reapers are very small, though, and some can reach through the walls to pluck souls out of the room.

Reapers are as specialized as insects, so it's hard to avoid them completely.

Burying somebody alive is usually a pretty good way to keep reapers away from them. Reapers don't like to get trapped in a coffin with somebody forever for one soul. The reaper is more likely to wait above the ground hoping for it to come out that way- the soul is more likely to become a ghost.

It isn't easy.

Usually the only time you get ghosts is if:

The death was very violent and unexpected (if there was no reaper around)- some cases of murder. Usually in the case of a young, healthy couple- neither likely to die any time soon.

The death toll in an area was so large and sudden there weren't enough reapers to collect the souls fast enough- some battle grounds. (reapers will amass and follow marching soldiers, though, sometimes up to one per head) Riots and civil wars are a good example of sudden battles- reapers will not amass around soldiers in friendly territory.

Drownings, fairly often. However, if people drown in a particular area often, reapers that can swim may take up residence (this is such in the case that drowning is used as a means of execution)



kyonides wrote:
Do they separate someone else from its body or what?


It can usually only happen if there's not a reaper around.

Depends. They can kick the old souls out, they can fuse, they can eat them... many options.

However, either way ageons will follow the invading soul, because they are stuck to the soul and not the body. The new body will age quickly to catch up to the age of the soul. It's not a way to avoid death by old age.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blake about elfin creatures wrote:
As such, they avoid civilization where reapers might lurk in large numbers, and hide from human- they usually only appear to children, who are not followed by reapers due to having immature souls.

LOL, but also very impressed by the self-consistent complexity of the whole...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinetiq wrote:

LOL, but also very impressed by the self-consistent complexity of the whole...


Thanks. That's the "Adults don't often believe in faeries and such because they only appear to young children" cliche

Like Xhin sig quoted me:

"This is a high fantasy setting with a twist- it actually fu*king makes sense."

(a.k.a. internal consistency)

It's an attempt to mix as many fantasy cliches as possible, and reconcile them all with each other, and in the process [incidentally] actually make them unique again.

It seems complicated, but it all reduces down to some fairly simple premises.


More questions?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any story of traitors In your conworld? Or are they just "nice people"? (That's something everyone would find quite boring...)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
Is there any story of traitors In your conworld? Or are they just "nice people"? (That's something everyone would find quite boring...)


They are capable of being traitors- there's nothing that stops them save fear of punishment for it. That fear reduces treachery, but does not eliminate it.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought there would be some famous traitors, infamous sabotages and so on, but I guess that no one has become a major political or social figure in your conworld.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
I thought there would be some famous traitors, infamous sabotages and so on, but I guess that no one has become a major political or social figure in your conworld.



There may be, but that's more of a 'World' thing than magic and science fiction. Probably a good question to ask of everybody in World, though.

This is basically to talk about the magic system and creatures.

However, if you want substantial- all vampire lords are basically traitors of a sort in the metaworld.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well maybe magic affected their minds in a specific way that don't let them stop being treacherous... At least someone should have used magic in a terrible way... maybe someone started creating artificial reapers or something.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
well maybe magic affected their minds in a specific way that don't let them stop being treacherous...


The Vampire lords? No, not at all. Being a vampire lord is illegal, ergo, anybody who is one is essentially a traitor.

Quote:
At least someone should have used magic in a terrible way... maybe someone started creating artificial reapers or something.


That's kind of what vampires are. They take the souls and send them to the wrong place.

There aren't any artificial reapers though; that would amount to a metaworld construction being smuggled into the 'real' world. That would just be silly, and you'd get caught, when vampires work just fine for the job.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is there some prohibition like "do not create / transmutate anything into gold"?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
is there some prohibition like "do not create / transmutate anything into gold"?



There isn't, but that isn't necessarily possible for humans to do, or economical in any way for metaworlders to do in the 'real' world- and not necessarily possible to do in the metaworld at all.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blake wrote:
Quote:
Besides, who said that immortality makes you stronger, wiser or anything else? Even if the vampire got out of their trap after a hundred years of imprisonment it doesn't mean that he'll be as strong as he was before being trapped inside the hole.


In this case, the vampire would be equally strong, and much more pissed off. They don't derive energy from physical sources- they're cheaters, breaking the rules of the world (which is why the reapers can kill them).

[...]

Give a vampire a spoon and he'll go at the wall with it with the force of three men hopped up on adrenaline non-stop for fifty years until he drills through an entire mountain. Pebble on pebble the vampire would pound through it with unending fury, and be non the weaker when it got out- only more determined to hunt you or every one of your surviving relatives to extinction as its death's mission.

Things like this are why one should dispose of vampires on the Moon instead. Do they have the cooperative ability to get off there? Single-use time machines are a good choice too: sending the vampires billions of years into the future.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon.clarkstone wrote:

Things like this are why one should dispose of vampires on the Moon instead. Do they have the cooperative ability to get off there?


No. If they go up too high using liftium, it first gets very cold and hard to breathe (though not impossible), and then they hit the ceiling- a solid, black, stone-like material. If they go to where the moon is, they'll find a large, disc-like ship crawling along near the ceiling, inside of which is something resembling a factory. Ageons are very thick up there, and move very quickly in tides across the ceiling- nearest the moon itself they're thick enough to age a young person to death within a few days. By the vents around the moon they come thick enough to do it in minutes (which is the only reliable way into the moon).


Quote:
Single-use time machines are a good choice too: sending the vampires billions of years into the future.


Those don't exist. One can freeze a small area of time, but it will be shortly unfrozen by a passing reaper who becomes curious enough to see what has been hidden inside.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon.clarkstone wrote:
kyonides wrote:
Quote:
Ageons are ether particles, of a sort, that cling to souls. They also prevent biological regeneration, thus resulting in aging.


That sounds like a mix of UV and X-rays to me.

Um, except UV and X-rays damage things rather than clinging to them, because they go at 186,000 mi/sec.



Right you are. Ageons do not actually damage the cells; they inhibit regeneration, reproduction, and other cell functions. As soon as the ageons are removed, the cells function like new.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How could they possibly remove the ageons and let the cells work normally?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
How could they possibly remove the ageons and let the cells work normally?


Ageons are like suction cups, or very strong magnets. It is not easy to pull them off, but they can be slid.

A soul doesn't have an edge to slide them off of, but if you overlap two souls, or squish them up against each other, you can slide the ageons from one to the other across the surface.

When you drain somebody's youth, you aren't actually taking youth, but giving ageons.

You can also push them off by sheer force- excreting soul from the inside like a little jet of pressure, but that tends to break the ageons, which is something the reapers can see like a neon sign and drives them into a frenzy. (It's more like the ageons get stuck inside out when that happens- they become inverted)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blake wrote:
You can also push them off by sheer force- excreting soul from the inside like a little jet of pressure, but that tends to break the ageons, which is something the reapers can see like a neon sign and drives them into a frenzy. (It's more like the ageons get stuck inside out when that happens- they become inverted)

Nice mechanisms and physical image. It fits in well with the mental-model-oriented feel of your setting. (What is the proper adjective?)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon.clarkstone wrote:

Nice mechanisms and physical image. It fits in well with the mental-model-oriented feel of your setting. (What is the proper adjective?)



Thanks Smile

That's how I like to do things. Basic rules, then extrapolate all of the consequences from there- and then hide all of the basic rules (like the unknown UFT).

In the end, all of the consequences seem to fit together in an inexplicable way, the people can hypothesize about what causes them.


What do you mean proper adjective?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

toff wrote:
(FYI, I split the storytelling concern out to another thread.)

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